[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

Not sure if I am on or anywhere near the mark on this one, but it is a trend I have seen in some animes and I was wondering if the creaters were translating (obviously) japanese culture through animes.

Some things I have noticed:

School uniforms, Although I already knew this was a fact, I didn't expect them to look like the ones in animies, are the anime variants exxagerated?

formal refereces to eachother I often hear chracters saying "Miss ___, or Mr ___ " when referring to friends or kids their own age...

Another thing, does the Sensei at the end of a teacher's name eg: Yukari-sensei basically the same as saying Mrs. Yukari, or does it more roughly translate to Mrs. Teacher Yukari...?


Another thing, I don't know if you know this or not, so im not getting my hopes up, but do kids/high schoolers actually talk and interact with eachother like they do in an anime?


just some thought thats popped into my head when i watched Azumanga Daioh and the Melancoly of Suzimia something or other.

[Zarxrax]

School uniforms, Although I already knew this was a fact, I didn't expect them to look like the ones in animies, are the anime variants exxagerated?
Most stuff in anime tends to be exaggerated to some extent. Most of the uniforms you see in anime are probably based on real school uniforms, but uniforms in anime are often tend to have a stereotypical design, or tend to be more sexy looking than most uniforms actually are.



formal refereces to eachother I often hear chracters saying "Miss ___, or Mr ___ " when referring to friends or kids their own age...
The '-san' suffix is just something added to a name to show politeness. You would use it when speaking to someone who you don't know well, or someone who's older, but not someone like a close friend. It's usually just translated as Mr./Mrs. because theres not really any better way to translate it in the english language.



Another thing, does the Sensei at the end of a teacher's name eg: Yukari-sensei basically the same as saying Mrs. Yukari, or does it more roughly translate to Mrs. Teacher Yukari...?
The word sensei basically means teacher, and as a naming suffix it can replace '-san'. You can also use it without the persons name, just calling them 'sensei'. This suffix can also be used for doctors.



Another thing, I don't know if you know this or not, so im not getting my hopes up, but do kids/high schoolers actually talk and interact with each other like they do in an anime?
Unlikely.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

Ohh wow, I just realized what I wrote for that last question... I know its pretty doubtful but I didn't mean for interactiosns to be eactly like the animes....

just to clear something up; school uniforms for girls in Japan are somewhat sailoresque? Or is this another variation of exageration in animes...

Also: this should be pretty obvious, but im just confirming it, but are the dialects in the different places of japan can be comprable to I guess the best word is 'accents' in the US? Where the language is generally the same, but people say different words slightly differently? As in the US I would assume that someone with a different dialect then someone else could still understand them? Or is a different dialect a whole different language?

I have a few others, I just cant remember them right now... thanks for the answers thus far though.

[Zarxrax]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_school_uniform

Yea, people talk differently in different parts of Japan, but it's still the same language. Some of it is quite different though.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

wow, I never thought that the sailor type uniform was an actual uniform!

Just out of curiosuity, buy why would a Japenese school choose THAT as a uniform? Using Azumanga Daioh as an example there was another one that had a long black coat with a headband and something else... what are the purposes of these uniforms? The one I just mentioned dosent seem like it would be a summer uniform or winter one...

A few other things come to mind when I think about it... ill ask later.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

RIGHT! I just remembered one. If you went into a trainstation in japan,(assuming your a traveller or tourist or something) and you happened to ask a high school student for directions, or was offered help by one,, would they be able to communicate with you?

One Scene in Azumanga Daioh is at the fore of my mind, and while I know it was intended to be purely for comedy.... can Japense HS students understand/Speak English in this particular situation or at all? What is their foriegn language program like? do they start in grade school or does it begin in HS.

[Zarxrax]

Students in Japan typically start learning English in middle school, so they only get about 6 years of English before they graduate. As a result, Japanese really suck at English. The scenes in Azumanga probably aren't too far off.

[UNOwen]

Right, well, is there anyone here from Japan who can also help out on these questions? No offense, Z (Okay, maybe a little offense), but I'd like to hear from someone with a bit more experience.

[Split Second]

Wow, six years of English? After six years I can't imagine being anything other than fluent by then. I suppose what Yukari sensei said about Japanese pride preventing them from speaking English better was true.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

yes this is getting very interesting! It would be good to hear from someone that actually is from or live in japan about these topics...

[Zarxrax]

Wow, six years of English? After six years I can't imagine being anything other than fluent by then. I suppose what Yukari sensei said about Japanese pride preventing them from speaking English better was true.


Well I've studied Japanese for close to 6 years, and am still VERY far from fluent. Honestly...if you even count up all the hours of actual study over those 6 years, it still doesn't come close to even living immersed in the language for 1 year, I'm sure.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

Yeah, I can understand that, but wouldn't they want to step up their language program in order to stay in touch with one of the most widly used languages in the world? Also, would a japanese HS student be surprised if they went to help a tourist and they knew how to speak it very fluently? Because in the US foriengers speaking english dosent really come as a surprise at all... in fact I can't really remember any time I was surprised by a foriegner spaeking english to me at all... but in other countries, especially asian countries, I would imagine it would be somewhat surprising, if not astonishing.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

WHAT? no one has any more insight?

[Crazy Girl Who Loves CAND]

I have a question...okay so why in Japan they wear the socks with sandals I mean I've seen it in anime but only when the anime has to do with something about swords.........i never understood that.

[jopojelly]

How many Japanese Students do you think are really that motivated to speak English that well? They're most likely never going to use it. (think of it this way, how many of your parents had to use a 2nd language on their job, most likely none.)

Why make all the students suffer through more english? As long as they can understand the english in Jpop songs then thats all the English they'd probably ever care about. There's no point in forcing the whole country to be fluent in english.

[Zarxrax]

I have a question...okay so why in Japan they wear the socks with sandals I mean I've seen it in anime but only when the anime has to do with something about swords.........i never understood that.


Maybe to keep their feet from getting cold?

[DicyDax]

I have a question...okay so why in Japan they wear the socks with sandals I mean I've seen it in anime but only when the anime has to do with something about swords.........i never understood that.


Maybe to keep their feet from getting cold?


what a refreshingly non-sarcastic answer???

.. I agree with jopojelly. Japanese students do only need to learn english if they are:
a: Going to Europe, US or anywhere else where people speaks english.
b: If they are interrested in english for example if they are interrested in reading books in their original language (like i am since i'm scandinavian)

So i think thats that

[Crazy Girl Who Loves CAND]

I guess that explains it.......well where do they get all these demons and monsters from? I doubt some guy came out of nowhere and said today i'm going to make a show about some guy who finds a book called Death Note and can kill people with it or I shall make a story about a nine-tailed fox who almost destroyed Konoha.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

Well, I would imagine that many of them would find English useful in the business world... i find it kinda odd how one of the most technologically advanced superpowers is gonna say : NAH! I really don't need English or any other language then my native because ill never use it... I assume that they just get jobs in their own country then?

it just seems... well stupid to remain that rigid in times like these.

The US gives an education in multiple languages at a very young age, and yes they do force us through it, primarily because the US is so diverse... but does Japan actually hope to remain mostly pure?

[Crazy Girl Who Loves CAND]

Well, I would imagine that many of them would find English useful in the business world... i find it kinda odd how one of the most technologically advanced superpowers is gonna say : NAH! I really don't need English or any other language then my native because ill never use it... I assume that they just get jobs in their own country then?

it just seems... well stupid to remain that rigid in times like these.

The US gives an education in multiple languages at a very young age, and yes they do force us through it, primarily because the US is so diverse... but does Japan actually hope to remain mostly pure? well this is how it is Japan exports goods to the United States and they need to learn English because if you know the other person's language you won't get ripped off.

[RainSage]

I have a question...okay so why in Japan they wear the socks with sandals I mean I've seen it in anime but only when the anime has to do with something about swords.........i never understood that.


Maybe to keep their feet from getting cold?


Okay, little history lesson here. The "socks with sandals" are actually a kind of shoe worn by samurai, for many reasons. The shoe has a flat bottom, and allows the user to feel for edges and obstacles simply by moving ones foot against them. Therefore the samurai could sense for nearby escape routes and or advantages, without having to look. Also, the shoe is very good for quick movement, because the shoes are very bendable, so one can escape quickly by turning on the sandal. These "socks in shoes" are hardly used by anyone today, however, they are still traditional garb for the average Bushido student.

From later on (thanks to InkWolf) The names of these are Tabi Socks, and Zori Sandals.

[UNOwen]

(think of it this way, how many of your parents had to use a 2nd language on their job, most likely none.)Actually, both my parents use their second language everyday at their job. That second language is English. Their primary language is Spanish. Even though I'm reversed, I still use Spanish at my job at least once a day. I'm not totally fluent, but I know enough to get me by. That's all you can ask for, right?

[Crazy Girl Who Loves CAND]

okay well nobody has yet to respond to my monster question.....oh well......Okay in the anime the people have round eyes and in Japan they have squinty eyes...what iz up with that?

[masterage]

okay well nobody has yet to respond to my monster question.....oh well......Okay in the anime the people have round eyes and in Japan they have squinty eyes...what iz up with that?


Read somewhere that in anime, the eyes are a pretty good measure of good/innocence/windows into the soul. Squinty eyes in anime are more evil/serious/tortured past. Not true all the time...
It could just be easier to express emotions with -_-

[TheEndOfAlThingsGreen]

Another question:

In Azumanga Daioh, girl/adult woman gamers are mentioned. is this true in Japan, or is it an exxageration?

[Zarxrax]

Another question:

In Azumanga Daioh, girl/adult woman gamers are mentioned. is this true in Japan, or is it an exxageration?


They exist in America too, they are just few and far between. I'm pretty sure Japan does a lot better job marketing games to girls than we do here in America, Nintendo has been breaking down the barriers a lot more though, these days.

Also, a lot of anime is targeted towards otaku-types, and having female characters who are into games or anime can appeal to them.

[Zarxrax]

okay well nobody has yet to respond to my monster question.....oh well......Okay in the anime the people have round eyes and in Japan they have squinty eyes...what iz up with that?


Some of the first anime were heavily influenced by disney cartoons, and much of the style, such as large eyes, was copied. It simply never changed from that over the years.

Also, not all Japanese people have squinty eyes. I believe I have heard before that the squinty eyes were likely evolved from living in areas with lots of snow and wind, in order to keep the snow from blowing in their eyes. So people from the northern regions in the mountains and stuff would have evolved these squinty eyes, while those living in the south wouldn't. But of course, interbreeding between the two areas would average it out over time.

[Crazy Girl Who Loves CAND]

wow....you are really smart.......hmmmmm.......well why do some guys in anime have their ears pierced? I know it looks cool but i have yet to find a japenese guy with his ears or anywhere for that matter pierced.

[Arden Jace]

Going back to the foreign language discussion earlier:

As far as I know, the second-most spoken language in Japan is German. Apparently, the Japanese have this strange love-affair with German culture. You can see this influence in a lot of places, if you look just beneath the surface.


Examples I've noticed include:

-Episode titles from Elfen Lied (rendered in the eyecatches in Japanese, English, and German).

-Asuka Langley Soryu

-If you stretch things a bit, "Nibelheim" from FF7 translates from German to "Cloud Town" in English, as "Nebel" is the German word for fog. Given that Nibelheim is in the mountains, fog in that town is clouds to everyone else.

-FF7 villain Heidigger possibly gets his name from Martin Heidegger, a German philosopher.

-"Sephiroth" is derived from "Sephirot" or a variation thereof, which is a Jewish symbol from the Kabbalah which is often translated to mean "Tree of Life." The Sephirot displays the ten main attributes of the Jewish god.

-The subtitles to all three of the Xenosaga games are titles of books by Nietzsche.

-A lot of the underlying themes in NGE, such as the "Hedgehog's Dilemma," are taken from German philosophers (esp. Freud and Kierkegaard).

-"Gestalt" is a German word meaning "shape, form, or guise;" a FF3 (by American numbering) gets his name from this phrase.


Most of this I'm pulling from memory or what I've read (mostly on wikipedia) so if anyone has anything to add or correct, they're welcome to do so. Also, I need a better way to spend my time. >_>

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

Thanks for the insight!

on an unrelated note... what in the hell is mellon bread?

Why would the Japanese be so interested in german culture do you think? I haven't looked but I really have not found anything so astoundingly awesome that they would want to mimick it...

[Arden Jace]

Why would the Japanese be so interested in german culture do you think?

I could ask you or myself the same question pertaining to Japanese culture. It's just something you personally enjoy. Now, why there are so many Japanese who like German culture, I don't know. Being in a country so ethnically diverse, Americans don't really see a large population who are intrigued or "in to" a specific other culture.

Anyway, my guess and answer to your question is that, to the Japanese, German culture is something that is different enough to be interesting, but somehow familiar or understandable enough to be enjoyed.

[UNOwen]

So, then why don't they learn German instead of English?

[Inkwolf]

So, then why don't they learn German instead of English?


Because English is the world's current language of doing business, due to the U.S.'s marketing clout. I'm sure some students do study German, but English is the standard, the way learning Spanish is the default second language in the U.S.

Re the socks and sandals, here's a chart of essential samurai gear. You can find tabi socks and zori sandals (or geta sandals, the wooden ones with the two crossbars) online easily enough, even from Amazon.com, if your anime-viewing or Cosplaying pleasure requires them.

I've got a pair. :D

I've never actually worn them, apart from trying them on, though...

http://amvhell.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=994.0;attach=119;i mage

[RainSage]

So, then why don't they learn German instead of English?


Because English is the world's current language of doing business, due to the U.S.'s marketing clout. I'm sure some students do study German, but English is the standard, the way learning Spanish is the default second language in the U.S.

Re the socks and sandals, here's a chart of essential samurai gear. You can find tabi socks and zori sandals (or geta sandals, the wooden ones with the two crossbars) online easily enough, even from Amazon.com, if your anime-viewing or Cosplaying pleasure requires them.


You should try em on tho.
I've got a pair. :D

I've never actually worn them, apart from trying them on, though...

http://amvhell.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=994.0;attach=119;i mage


Lol I forgot the name on my post.. Ty on the sandal socks... I've always wanted a pair even after my samurai classes ended.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

noeone knows what mellon bread is? it was boruhgt up in two animes I can think of, but if its some made up food I will be dissapointed, cause it sounds good.

[DicyDax]

noeone knows what mellon bread is? it was boruhgt up in two animes I can think of, but if its some made up food I will be dissapointed, cause it sounds good.

I think it's bread with melon in it-...

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

UUUGHHH! I knew someone was gng to answer like that!! Fairs fair, and I don't hate you for saying that, since it should be obvious. my question is: Is the mellon just put inside it like the filling of a doughnut, or is it apaste, or is it somehow infused with the bread.

Another thing about japaence culture: In animes their characters seem to shout alot, in normal conversation. Is simply because thats the way cirtain words are said, or do japenese HS students get randomly excited in their conversations if their talking about something of interest?

[Matt_Colly]

UUUGHHH! I knew someone was gng to answer like that!! Fairs fair, and I don't hate you for saying that, since it should be obvious. my question is: Is the mellon just put inside it like the filling of a doughnut, or is it apaste, or is it somehow infused with the bread.

Another thing about japaence culture: In animes their characters seem to shout alot, in normal conversation. Is simply because thats the way cirtain words are said, or do japenese HS students get randomly excited in their conversations if their talking about something of interest?


think omlet with more baking...atleast that is how i have seen them made in Kanagawa

[Arden Jace]

Another thing about japaence culture: In animes their characters seem to shout alot, in normal conversation. Is simply because thats the way cirtain words are said, or do japenese HS students get randomly excited in their conversations if their talking about something of interest?


Don't American teenagers randomly shout too? At least, that's what I've observed.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

so it contains egg? or is it like a roll? I dont know! got a picture?

[Behemoth666]

use google, i'm sure you'll find a picture soon

[beriorgar]

i found the awnser to the melon bread question, just check out this link and read it for yourself (it also contains a recepy of how to make it)
http://www.c4vct.com/kym/bento/melonpan.htm

[Filleraol]

Im a little confused about when someone talks to an older person or a person of higher grade in school for example. They call them either senpai or sempai, which is the right one? or are they both right?? ???

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

HORAY THE MELON BREAD IS ANSWERED! I gotta get someone to make me some now. looks good. I think Senpai refers to older person, so I think seNpai is the correct way.

[Zarxrax]

Im a little confused about when someone talks to an older person or a person of higher grade in school for example. They call them either senpai or sempai, which is the right one? or are they both right?? ???


It's neither. It's pronounced ?????
Japanese does not use the English alphabet, so it's silly to question the English spelling of a word.

[beriorgar]

Im a little confused about when someone talks to an older person or a person of higher grade in school for example. They call them either senpai or sempai, which is the right one? or are they both right?? ???


It's neither. It's pronounced ?????
Japanese does not use the English alphabet, so it's silly to question the English spelling of a word.


i get your point, but what exactly does the word ????? sound like then?
because even in japan, people do use pretty much the same "kind" of speaking so it should sound like something anyway.
wich brings us back to the question: does it sound like a N of a M?
(plz don't go bitching on my ass for questioning the previous awnser to the question)

[Zarxrax]

i get your point, but what exactly does the word ????? sound like then?
because even in japan, people do use pretty much the same "kind" of speaking so it should sound like something anyway.
wich brings us back to the question: does it sound like a N of a M?
(plz don't go bitching on my ass for questioning the previous awnser to the question)


Say senpai out loud. Now say sempai out loud. Can you honestly even hear a difference?
There is not any single accepted way of converting Japanese sounds into English, so it is possible to write words with multiple different English spellings.

[jak5255]

writing on windows with romanji to hiragana converting enabled = write with "n"
Speaking = honestly, who gives a s***, sounds the same.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

another question: for new years, why do HS students ask for money from Teachers, and why do teachers get money at graduation?

Also, this may be only anime specific buy in Chobits, the manager throws water onto the walkwat with a ladle. Whats the purpose of this?

[UNOwen]

Im a little confused about when someone talks to an older person or a person of higher grade in school for example. They call them either senpai or sempai, which is the right one? or are they both right?? ???


It's neither. It's pronounced ?????
Japanese does not use the English alphabet, so it's silly to question the English spelling of a word.
http://akurei.firepaw.com/images/roflcopter_1.gif
ROTFLCOPTER PWND! :P

And, yes, English 'M' and English 'N' sounds are easily identified by native speakers as two distinct sounds. However, it is not known if native Japanese speakers regard the equivalent sounds as two distinct sounds. As a closer example, English 'B' sound and English 'V' sound are easily identified as two distinct sounds. However, in Spanish, 'B' sound and 'V' sound (also known as "'B' grande" and "''B' chica", respectively) are identical and are treated as such. Still, even if the sounds are indistinguishable in speaking, writing will use one letter or the other, but are NOT interchangeable. The word 'Boca' (mouth) is spelled with "'B' grande" and 'Vaca' (cow) is spelled with "'B' chica." If either was misspelled, the words would not change, but someone reading it would have to look twice to understand.

Let's try an example in English as well. The soft 'G' sound in "Giant" and 'J' sound in "Jam" are indistinguishable to a native English speaker. However, when misspelled, the words are not so easily identified with their meaning: "Jiant" and "Gam". How about another example? Let's take the word "success". Seeing the word, a native speaker gets the idea almost immediately. Now, take the word "sucsess". Suddenly, the word is not so easy. An interesting phenomenon is that you probably read the word first, didn't understand, then reread the word almost (if not totally) aloud to sound it out. Having done so, now you can go back and reread the word as many times as you like because you know what the word sounds like now and know the idea that i is supposed to represent.

Back to the word at hand, 'seNpai' or 'seMpai'. Although similar, the two sounds are NOT identical. The 'N' sound is created by forcing the air (and thereby, sound) through your nose by sealing your mouth towards the back with your tongue. This causes the sound to travel entirely via your throat and nasal cavities. With the 'M' sound, on the other hand, the seal is created with your lips, allowing some of the sound to bounce around in your mouth, causing stray waves to elongate resulting in a slightly deeper sound. Whether or not a native Japanese speaker is able to detect this subtlety is another question, but, either way, there should be an accepted and correct Roman letter to indicate the pronunciation. That would be the question at hand. The easiest way would be to ignore the kanji entirely and focus on how it would be written in Kana. Since both hiragana (Hiragana table (http://japanese-kanji.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=8)) and katagana (Katagana table (http://www.japanese-kanji.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=9)) (both types of kana) have distinct characters for the sounds 'ma', 'mi', 'mu', 'me', 'mo', and 'na', 'ni', nu', 'ne', 'no', it wouldn't be too far to assume the two sounds are, in fact, distinguishable. If that is the case, then one sound is correct and the other (regardless of the fact that it may still be generally accepted) is incorrect. Since I do not know Japanese, I can only answer the question thus far. However, I am also curious as to the answer, so if anyone out there is a native (or, at least fluent AND in constant use) speaker, please grace us with an answer and explanation.

U. N. Owen does not fool around when he is not satisfied with an answer, and will NOT hesitate to attack said answer from all sides until a new (and much more satisfying) answer is given.
http://akurei.firepaw.com/images/roflcopter_1.gif

[Behemoth666]

hmm, let me try
unfortunately i?m just a beginner in japanese language,
but i think i understand the main problem,

the japanese use (i mean the kana, not kanji) a syllables-alphabet, it's incommensurable
with the latin alphabet, the may see a different between ma, mi, mu, me, mo and na, ni, nu, ne, no,
but not between n and m.
but it does't care, if you'll write japanese in the right form, you MUST use kana and kanji,
romaji is only a kind of "helpful instrument" to use similiar latinletters to write kana or kanjis.
(for those who can't read kana and kanji)
and someone understand ? as M and someother as N, a norm doesn't exists.

i hope you understand what i mean,
greetings

[Issitheus]

while on the topic of kanji, does anyone know what i need to display it in firefox?

[Zarxrax]

Im a little confused about when someone talks to an older person or a person of higher grade in school for example. They call them either senpai or sempai, which is the right one? or are they both right?? ???


It's neither. It's pronounced ?????
Japanese does not use the English alphabet, so it's silly to question the English spelling of a word.
http://akurei.firepaw.com/images/roflcopter_1.gif
ROTFLCOPTER PWND! :P

And, yes, English 'M' and English 'N' sounds are easily identified by native speakers as two distinct sounds. However, it is not known if native Japanese speakers regard the equivalent sounds as two distinct sounds. As a closer example, English 'B' sound and English 'V' sound are easily identified as two distinct sounds. However, in Spanish, 'B' sound and 'V' sound (also known as "'B' grande" and "''B' chica", respectively) are identical and are treated as such. Still, even if the sounds are indistinguishable in speaking, writing will use one letter or the other, but are NOT interchangeable. The word 'Boca' (mouth) is spelled with "'B' grande" and 'Vaca' (cow) is spelled with "'B' chica." If either was misspelled, the words would not change, but someone reading it would have to look twice to understand.

Let's try an example in English as well. The soft 'G' sound in "Giant" and 'J' sound in "Jam" are indistinguishable to a native English speaker. However, when misspelled, the words are not so easily identified with their meaning: "Jiant" and "Gam". How about another example? Let's take the word "success". Seeing the word, a native speaker gets the idea almost immediately. Now, take the word "sucsess". Suddenly, the word is not so easy. An interesting phenomenon is that you probably read the word first, didn't understand, then reread the word almost (if not totally) aloud to sound it out. Having done so, now you can go back and reread the word as many times as you like because you know what the word sounds like now and know the idea that i is supposed to represent.

Back to the word at hand, 'seNpai' or 'seMpai'. Although similar, the two sounds are NOT identical. The 'N' sound is created by forcing the air (and thereby, sound) through your nose by sealing your mouth towards the back with your tongue. This causes the sound to travel entirely via your throat and nasal cavities. With the 'M' sound, on the other hand, the seal is created with your lips, allowing some of the sound to bounce around in your mouth, causing stray waves to elongate resulting in a slightly deeper sound. Whether or not a native Japanese speaker is able to detect this subtlety is another question, but, either way, there should be an accepted and correct Roman letter to indicate the pronunciation. That would be the question at hand. The easiest way would be to ignore the kanji entirely and focus on how it would be written in Kana. Since both hiragana (Hiragana table (http://japanese-kanji.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=8)) and katagana (Katagana table (http://www.japanese-kanji.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=9)) (both types of kana) have distinct characters for the sounds 'ma', 'mi', 'mu', 'me', 'mo', and 'na', 'ni', nu', 'ne', 'no', it wouldn't be too far to assume the two sounds are, in fact, distinguishable. If that is the case, then one sound is correct and the other (regardless of the fact that it may still be generally accepted) is incorrect. Since I do not know Japanese, I can only answer the question thus far. However, I am also curious as to the answer, so if anyone out there is a native (or, at least fluent AND in constant use) speaker, please grace us with an answer and explanation.

U. N. Owen does not fool around when he is not satisfied with an answer, and will NOT hesitate to attack said answer from all sides until a new (and much more satisfying) answer is given.
http://akurei.firepaw.com/images/roflcopter_1.gif


WTF

THATS TOO MANY WORDS

[Zarxrax]

Since both hiragana (Hiragana table (http://japanese-kanji.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=8)) and katagana (Katagana table (http://www.japanese-kanji.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=9)) (both types of kana) have distinct characters for the sounds 'ma', 'mi', 'mu', 'me', 'mo', and 'na', 'ni', nu', 'ne', 'no', it wouldn't be too far to assume the two sounds are, in fact, distinguishable.


Open your table again and actually look at the last character in it.

[UNOwen]

Open your table again and actually look at the last character in it.
Last character (if I am understanding your instructions correctly) = "?" and "?" which = "N". Therefore.....?



It's pronounced ?????

Hmm... there is a "?" in "?????". So, am I to infer that the correct answer is "N"?



the japanese use (i mean the kana, not kanji) a syllables-alphabet, it's incommensurable
with the latin alphabet, the may see a different between ma, mi, mu, me, mo and na, ni, nu, ne, no,
but not between n and m.
but it does't care, if you'll write japanese in the right form, you MUST use kana and kanji,
romaji is only a kind of "helpful instrument" to use similiar latinletters to write kana or kanjis.
(for those who can't read kana and kanji)
and someone understand ? as M and someother as N, a norm doesn't exists.


The proper way to convert the spelling of any word from one language to another, however, is to convert the characters to sound (which, with only a few exceptions, is universal) then convert the sound to the new language using equivalent characters that would create a similar sound. Yes, I understand that since the two languages do not use similarly based characters, making direct translation impossible. Still, when enunciated properly, the word is a pattern of distinct sounds intended to portray an idea. The simple fact remains is that there appear to be separate characters for each sound group, which would be otherwise unnecessary if the two sounds were indistinguishable in Japanese. Modern writing is fairly well standardized, so, as stated before, one sound is correct, while the other (even though it might be generally accepted almost as much) is actually incorrect. This is why I'm hoping someone who is a native speaker drops in.

[Zarxrax]

Native speakers often romanize the words in ways that don't sound correct. For instance, they may often use "tu" instead of "tsu", or "si" instead of "shi", while the latter of each is actually closer to the actual sound.

Furthermore, yes, each character makes a distinct sound, but the sounds do not necessarily map accurately to our alphabet. This is what causes the whole "L R" confusion--though these are 2 very distinct sounds, the Japanese have to represent them both with a single sound. When romanizing a Japanese word that uses this sound, some people might write it using an L and others might write it using an R.
You might notice this when looking at various different translations of things. In one translation, a characters name my be spelled with an L, while another translation uses an R. Or how about Aeris/Aerith.

[UNOwen]

Which is exactly my point. In the matter of "tu" vs "tsu" ans "si" vs "shi", the latter of each set is more accurate and, therefore, the correct romanizing of the word. The other may still be acceptable, but it isn't accurate, and therefore is incorrect. If you think about it, direct character-to-character translation of two written languages is impossible. They need to have something in common first. That is where speech comes in. What we really need is for a native speaker to properly enunciate the word so it can be remapped using Roman characters. There is a distinct sound for the Roman "N" vs the Roman "M" and, whether or not the Japanese have a character for either, it has already been established as one of the two sounds. "Senpai" and "Sempai" indicate who different patterns of sound, so the question is which pattern is closer to the Japanese pronunciation.

[Zarxrax]

Wikipedia uses the following rule:

Moraic n

* An n before a consonant is moraic (its own mora).
* A moraic n followed by a vowel or y is written n'.
* The moraic n has various phonetic realisations:
o Before an n, t, d or r, it is pronounced [n].
o Before a k or g, it is pronounced [?].
o Before an m, b or p, it is pronounced as [m]. It is written as m in some versions of Hepburn, but as n in Wikipedia?s modified Hepburn.
o It is otherwise pronounced as [?] or [??].

[UNOwen]

Can you post a link? Normally, I don't like using wikipedia, because there will always be discrepancies. I'll try and find some university's English website or something as credible. I would like to see more sources to verify, but this is definitely helpful. According to this, the most accurate Romanizing of the word would be "Sempai"

[Zarxrax]

Geez, just google it.

[Matt_Colly]

Can you post a link? Normally, I don't like using wikipedia, because there will always be discrepancies. I'll try and find some university's English website or something as credible. I would like to see more sources to verify, but this is definitely helpful. According to this, the most accurate Romanizing of the word would be "Sempai"


My japanese professor said senpai is most accurate. broken into the characters se n pa i and this translates into the most acurate romanji of senpai.

[beriorgar]

My japanese professor said senpai is most accurate. broken into the characters se n pa i and this translates into the most acurate romanji of senpai.


well, i guess that settles it once and for all

[Matt_Colly]

My japanese professor said senpai is most accurate. broken into the characters se n pa i and this translates into the most acurate romanji of senpai.


well, i guess that settles it once and for all


well this is on the internet and people somehow never want to accept info once their mind is made up...so, this doesn't really solve anything sadly. :( but sensei was a foreign ambassador for 23 years and has her doctorate in the language...so i think she may know a bit more than us.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

well this is on the internet and people somehow never want to accept info once their mind is made up...so, this doesn't really solve anything sadly.

Trust me. I highly doubt anyone would contest this point now that you have gone to a undisputed source... unless your lying about being in college i doubt anyone would be dumb nough -even on the internet- to disagree with you at this point...

So, back to my most recent questions, Whats the purpose of throwing water onto the walk way, aaaannnd.. the other ones. I am too lazy to look back to refer to them again.

[Matt_Colly]

haha, naw. if i am lieing about being in college maybe it would help me escape my student loans...but i'm sure someone, somewhere has tried that before...haha. I'm at a small liberal arts college in PA but our language department (part of the reason i came here) is amazing. Bhattacharya Sensei is incredible. ;D glad this (might have) helpped.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

yes, it helped clarify that issue, thank you for your contribution!

[Matt_Colly]

a thousand welcomes ;D

[UNOwen]

Actually, I'm fairly satisfied with that answer for now. I'll still try find the answer first hand for myself, but as far as debating back and forth on the board, it looks like I'm done. No offense to "Zenpai", but I just couldn't accept the answer of "It doesn't matter" when we were looking for an answer. It was like trying to tell me "Don't bother to find out" which gets my goat sometimes.

[Issitheus]

I was just on the first page of this discussion, and I realized something...

Zarxrax knows a LOT about Japanese culture.


and, on a somwhat related not, does anyone know where I can find a Kanji display thing for Firefox? Whenever I see a Japanese character, I only see question marks.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

???? ???? ???? ?????!

[Issitheus]

are you mocking me?!

[Zarxrax]

I was just on the first page of this discussion, and I realized something...

Zarxrax knows a LOT about Japanese culture.


and, on a somwhat related not, does anyone know where I can find a Kanji display thing for Firefox? Whenever I see a Japanese character, I only see question marks.


You have to install Japanese language support in Windows. In the regional and language settings under control panel. The exact method varies from each version of windows, but theres lots of tutorials out there if you google it. Its basically just a matter of having the right fonts installed.

[TheEndOfAllThingsGreen]

are you mocking me?!

Nope.