[Shuiia]

Well greetings everyone...

It's been a while since I've logged on so quick recap of what has been going on lately.

I've started college in september and I'm following a medical imaging course in Eindhoven. So far I'm loving it. The curriculum is fascinating, all the classes are realy worthwhile and I'm stoked to be involved with medical technology and everything else medical.

I especially enjoy the trips I have to take with the train from my home to school. Still haven't moved out yet and I'm also not planning on doing so for a little while due in part because I can't pull it off financially and moreso I see no need to do it yet. Luckily my studygroup are a bunch of serious and ambitious people who are in it because they are genuinely interested and not just to have a guarenteed job in the future. Partying is also something that we rarely do and only on special occassions and even then we do so responsibly so it is all I could wish for as far as my college career is concerned.

also I've changed my look somewhat and like a Kameleon these past few months but more on that in a different thread(probably the post a pic of yourself thread :P)

anyway back to the matter at hand: a couple of months ago I made a suggestion in a different thread that we should have a thread to discuss things philosphically wise...aaaaand then I said I'd do it.....aaaaaaaaand then I did something else and I didn't check back with this website in QUUUUIIIIIITE a while 8'D.


So now I'm making this thread and I just say right of the bat:
I've noticed that things have deteriorated immensely with people nowadays. People are ALWAYS bitching about what not, always trying to prove points to each other in discussions and just try to be better than anyone else.
Entertainment has deteriorated as well with "new" things just being rei-interpretations of things that have came before or just straight up remakes or just plain and simple exactly the same stuff that we have been fed before which made it succesful.

Now I myself acknowledge that the previous statement was a bit shallow and not realy well put onto paper or in this case digits but I think it is a bit of a starting point for us to come into this thread and just discuss stuff.

I will say that I probably won't be very active in this thread or on this website at all but I will try to log on at least once a day.

Just a quick note: be HONEST in this thread, be as OPEN MINDED as you can but most of all try to PRESENT and DISCUSS things in this thread in a civilised and respecting manner so that we can all just learn from things posted in this thread and not just try to make fun of everything. It is my intention to SERIOUSLY discuss certain events, issues and overal questions of mankind and existence in this thread.

So I say to all have fun and let the manifesto commence

[Guthix]

when i came here i didint expect something like this lol, tetrianis rose a slight spark of hope previously before going to lurkism ^^
im not sure how to start a discusion since philosophy covers kinda everything... hm....

[jinzo64]

you wrote a lot
sorry i got bored reading all that so i didn't.
sorry.
oh and welcome back

[Shuiia]

well just bring up a certain thing you'd like to discuss and we can work on from there. Just think of this thread as a sort of Neural CPU. The more time it gets the more it learns and grows.

And thanks :3

[jinzo64]

sorry whats a neural cpu

[Shuiia]

Never seen Terminator? :P

Well a CPU is a Central Processing Unit a part of a computer that kind of handles everything. Kind of the brain of a computer and well Neural implies to a Neural net. A computer or data network that has been moddled after the human neural network in the brain so in short a CPU that can learn and develop on its own basically a chip that collects data and learns from it

[jinzo64]

i've seen terminator.
i also know what your getting at now i had a slow moment.

[Shuiia]

which brings me to an idea: Technology

well I read this transhuman online magazine called H+ magazine
(here's a link http://hplusmagazine.com/)
and not only does it cover new technological stuff but also social phenomena and just all in all things that are quite new and interessting for mankind

Just on a short note Transhumanism is the overall philosophy that Mankind needs to grown and evolve itself using technology that we ourselves created. Stuff like uploading our conciousness to the net and cybernetic implants etc.

but anyway I for one see technological improvement as a good thing. and I don't mean good as in we get new entertainment hardware every year and stuff but like serious stuff such as quantum computing and A.I. and such.

I for one kind of resent things like social networking and new gadgets on the market because I believe them to be just...well a waste of time. No one is using it realy to their full potential, most of the time it just creates a lot of faggotry and more so.
It just doesn't realy improve things or is realy new or groundbreaking.
I for one hope we get to see radical improvements with technology in the coming 2 decades or so like neural uplinks so we can "telepathically" connect to the internet but I see it as a source of knowledge and not realy a source of convenience.

My post has ended

[XelaisPWN]

People are ALWAYS bitching about what not, always trying to prove points to each other in discussions and just try to be better than anyone else.

Eeyup. That's how people argue. This is not a new thing.



Entertainment has deteriorated as well with "new" things just being rei-interpretations of things that have came before or just straight up remakes or just plain and simple exactly the same stuff that we have been fed before which made it succesful.

Again, not a new thing. You were just talking about Terminator? Go read some of Harlan Ellison's stuff. Eerily familiar, no?

None of this is new. You're probably only just now noticing it.


I for one kind of resent things like social networking and new gadgets on the market because I believe them to be just...well a waste of time. No one is using it realy to their full potential, most of the time it just creates a lot of faggotry and more so.

You keep saying things but all I hear is "I'm an old man, bragh." Social networking has revolutionized communication- news gets out faster, celebrities can communicate directly with their fans without some sort of filter, and people are becoming more and more connected to each other. Why is any of this bad? My mother doesn't do a whole lot of social networking, and just talking to her you can tell there's a nice big film over everything she says, because the information she gets is filtered by mainstream radio and news programs. She's living in a little bubble. It's insane. I'm glad that generation will be out of power eventually, and our more informed generation will be better suited to make good decisions.

[jinzo64]

you know that always gets me how people get more than quote in a post

[XelaisPWN]

Well, I wanted to tackle each thing separately and this way you can tell what is and is not a quote and you can click the little link to see the original post. It's for the sake of readability :P

[Bakagami]

Why?

[Shuiia]

solid point on how things realy haven't changed as far as entertainment and fiction go Xelias but I do have to tackle your stance on social networking.

You see I resent the kind of mainstream idiotic side of social networking i.e. valueing that over direct face to face contact. I do see that social networking has revolutionised certain areas of social interaction but nowadays everything just reeks of commercialism and arrogance. What I see is not people interacting with each other but more or less arrogant self rightiousness that gets shoved in your face. Sure it is kind of new and everything but at what cost?
What I see is not necessarily social interaction but more or less a fa?ade just wrapped in a online world.

[jinzo64]

i don't do social networking
the only place i post is here

[Shuiia]

I had a Myspace before social networking sites became a realy mainstream thing and I only have a hyves because my girlfriend convinced me to get one...and she is the only sole reason I got one. Furthermore I have a formspring that I never use and well just here, I joined cuz I've known AMV Hell for a couple of years and I'd wanted to see if I could be part of the fun.

[Guthix]

i dont realy recall why i i my self abandoned mainstream stuff, i kinda forced my self to forget, to xelas point i have to point out yes information moves fast but now thers ****ing TOO much information and if you dont know the lastest model of a **** inserted in yer pc you get stoned.+ehat shulia said bewfore my space and + trolls.
yet i cant realy say going back in time would solve this problem 0_-

[jinzo64]

i'm signed up to facebook,myspace and twitter but i barely use them

[Antonio Black]

Why?

See? She knows what the real questions of humanity are...

Interesting thread so far, if a little wordy. For the moment I'm unsure if any arguments I could present to justify my philosophical beliefs or dismiss the beliefs of others would be relevant in the context of the information already presented.
Did you get all that?

[jinzo64]

the real questions are
when,why,how,who,what and where

[Antonio Black]

You forgot one:


So?

[Guthix]

you dont realy need inteliganse and ****y words which no one cares abouts, its all about looking in everything from a diferent angle ,give a new meaning to it, like you nerds do with your pillows

[Shuiia]

well gee wizz this is turning into a decent thread after all :3
also guthix good that you said about there being an information overload which reminded me of a certain theory I thought up on people nowadays.

My thought is that we are presented so much information and opinions that we realy don't know how to deal with them. We are kind of expected to have a certain opinion about matters. Nowadays I notice that more than ever things are being done and based upon opinions and thoughts instead of brutal facts and just straight up "best" solutions.

I should note however that we do try to make the best of the information that gets bombarded our way but we run into a slight bottleneck: human emotion. I just see that whenever discussions or opinions are presented on the net they do with half baked arguments and heavy emotional nonsense.

So in short: information is too much, too shallow, too divided and we gravely lack the processing power to effectively deal with information in most cases

[XelaisPWN]

Just means people's bull**** detectors need some fine tuning. We all just need to be a little more skeptical.

[Guthix]

everyone is born stupid xela, they dont teach you that **** in school yer kinda self training in this one and if your friends are mostly dooshbags its hard to lean the other way.
on another note you cant expect equal communication regarding anonimity and realizing youve been talking to a 10 year old.the internet has an element of chaos but personaly i think it makes things more interesting.this is why info gets warped im not even talking about ads they try to shove you info as if you were a garbadge bin n theyr holding flaming trash with theyr bare hands.

[jinzo64]

the internet has given everyone a faceless voice thats why a lot of normaly nice poeple act like complete jerks on the internet

[XelaisPWN]

Tried to read whatever Guthix said. Was unable. If someone could translate, that'd be awesome.

Very astute, Jinzo. Indeed, the internet gives everyone a veil of anonymity.

On the other hand, that's quickly changing. I could tell you the first and last name of a ton of Hellians and even the hometown of quite a few of them. I won't, for their sakes (you creepy, creepy person) but I could. Facebook is slowly taking away that anonymity. Of course, people like Split and Baka prove that it is possible to retain anonymity, but it's very clear the internet is moving away from that idea.

[Guthix]

when anonytime will be gone from the internet it will be just another form of life just indoors -_-

[jinzo64]

it is already another form of live.

[abyssion1337]

http://1mut.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/philosoraptor-2ff.png

[jinzo64]

coz it does

[abyssion1337]

maybe it doesn't

[Shuiia]

http://1mut.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/philosoraptor-2ff.png

^ditto'd

But just indeed the internet has become a bit of a part of life but I see one problem. It is never meant to be A PART of life nor does the net realy matured enough te BE a part of life.

But also on the note of free will. My opinion on it is that free will does exist but that it cannot be clearly set as such.
My lifemotto is Mens Super Res which is piglatin for Mind over matter. My opinion is that nothing is realy to be defined and that everything is open to interpretation. Quantum mechanics have already proven quite a few notions that maybe everything we know isn't as it is.

But moreso when I see people that have a notion on free will it kinda resembles each other and tends to blend together nowadays. Most people have the same opinion on matters heralding life and the way it is meant to be lived and I can't help but smell the reek of either peer pressure or just straight group thinking.
I understand that certain things you would agree with with other people but to let that define the very being of one is a bit too far stretched in my opinion.

[Antonio Black]

Free will is defined by willpower, and willpower is defined by a mind. And a mind happens to belong to man.
Therefore, whether or not you have free will is up to you. And how you exercise it is the next step.

[zemoo]

Brains are made of Atoms,
minds need not be substances and therefore aren't necessarily made of anything.

And if you're going to be a determinist then you have to reject all ethical claims, which is something most people, myself included, cannot do.

[jinzo64]

i have free will
coz i have yet to pay for my will power
so it is still free
and on that obscure logic i have free will

[Guthix]

in the old days those who had free will and wasnt apart from from group thinking were stoned, today theyr called wierdos, yet even wierdos started grouping and uniqueness seems to fade rapidly.
about free will itself hm... well id say 50/50 you can bend it if you want to but normaly you just folow the path created by your expierience [like do not touch fire], promises and common sence [what is that again?]

[jinzo64]

isn't free the abillity to decide what to do with the options or ideas that presented to you.

[Guthix]

well there is a fact that theyrs always more options then presented but you dont use free will cause of consiquenses

[abyssion1337]

isn't free the abillity to decide what to do with the options or ideas that presented to you.

No, the point here is that free will is an illusion, because the human brain works in predictable way the 'decision' you made was no decision at all because you were always going to do what you ended up 'deciding' on

[jinzo64]

now your getting in to fate.
or the multiverse idea from d.c comics.
so on that premise i was always destined to type this.

i always get confused with films where people see the future.
you know is that the out come that was going to happen before they saw the future or this the new out come of events because they saw the future and tried to change it.

i hope the last bit made sense.

[Guthix]

well if abyss is right then life if one big movie, but its the greatest/worst and with the most D's

[abyssion1337]

1. I'm not getting into fate, that's an entirely different argument though I admit it is a connected argument.
2. The multi universe theory was not an idea from D.C. comics you idiot, it's from Quantum Physics

[jinzo64]

1. I'm not getting into fate, that's an entirely different argument though I admit it is a connected argument.
2. The multi universe theory was not an idea from D.C. comics you idiot, it's from Quantum Physics

1. your right that is a different argument and i'm for miss understanding.

2. the first time i heard of the multi verse theory was through the justice league and it's film crisis on two earths so i thought it was somthing d.c comics had come up with.
i was unaware of it's real world appilications in the science of quantum physics.

i'm probably wrong but isn't it quatum machanics which would be a branch from physics i mean doesn't physics basicaly cover everything from elctron particals,planets and everything in the known universe.

also you didn't touch on my forseeing the future query.

[abyssion1337]

yeah, I had trouble parsing your last sentence about forseeing the future, I admit I'm not entirely sure what you meant. As for physics, it's the basis for all of our science but match is the basis for physics. Honestly even art and music can often be brought back to math.

Actually if you want a really good look into the Multi Universe Theory watch Noein.

[jinzo64]

i've heard noein but i don't no much about it.

the thing with the forseeing of the future
was i watching final destination 2 i think it was 2
but the main character kept having visions of the future where her friends died.
so she interveined to try and save her friends but they ended up dying.

my question is did they die because interveined or would they have died regardless of her actions.

i'm sorry i'm not very good at my foughts in to text like this.

[abyssion1337]

Ah, well the thing about the Final Destination movies specifically is that it's not so much about fate so much as Death is a dick. But to answer your question, movies often have a theme of someone seeing the future and contributing to an event they're trying to stop because they didn't see the surrounding circumstances or because they were hasty and didn't stop to think about what they should be doing. Basically they're movies about an idiot seeing the future.

[jinzo64]

to be honest i hadn't fought of it like that i was to caught up trying to decide weather her interveining had anything to do with her friends deaths.

quick question is noenn an anime,live action film or a documentary about physics?

i hope spelt that right

[abyssion1337]

noein is an anime. To sum it up without any real spoilers, it takes place from the perspective of the quantum observer in the multiuniverse theory. This might make it sound too big to wrap your head around but they keep it fairly well grounded, also it's not a bad story on its own.

[jinzo64]

you edited your post.
thankyou for telling me more about noein.
also i'm sorry for spelling it's name wrong.

oh is it series or a film?

[abyssion1337]

series

[jinzo64]

i like that about abysion your so straight to the point.
maybe i'll pick it up from amazon in the new year.

oh another quick question
who told i'm an idiot?
it was probably mad or blood maybe it was backmask

[abyssion1337]

I don't remember, though I remember someone said it.

[jinzo64]

thats pity
well it is thruth i am an idiot.

i would like to say thankyou for entertaining my curriosities it must hard for an interlect like you to tollirate the bad spelling and graama of an idiot like me.

[Guthix]

y u no in philosophy anymore lol?also even thouth the ppl who created most awsome stuff/music/gadgets were nerds with lots of theory stored in theyr brains im not sure if you can heavily depend on anime for such discusions considering anime has no rules.

[jinzo64]

i'm not sure if your mocking me in a fun way
or acctualy taking the mick
which is odd that i'm pondering that coz i just proclaimed myself to being an idiot.

even though anime has no rules sometimes the stick with in the realms of reality.

[Guthix]

i dont know the boundarys are so thin sometimes i decide not go too deep into the illiusons

[jinzo64]

illusions are dangourus things.

oh you know somthing i am going to go and get some sleep i need to be up in about 6 hours.

[Guthix]

lol bastard, better hope you dream less

[Backmask]

i like that about abysion your so straight to the point.
maybe i'll pick it up from amazon in the new year.

oh another quick question
who told i'm an idiot?
it was probably mad or blood maybe it was backmask

I don't think Mad and Blood would call anybody an idiot.

[jinzo64]

your probably right.
but you missed your own name to imply that you would call someone an idiot.

[Guthix]

well back did call me a fag.... and gay... and im pretty sure something else behind my back so there is a posibility

[jinzo64]

sometimes back can be harsh.

[Guthix]

meh he makes my stay here less boring

[jinzo64]

that is so true.
it can be fun when back is being crude and rude

[Shuiia]

sooooo we need a new subject more or less. Why not tackle political views? >w>

So ok we have leadership roles left and right and candidates left and right and we just can't seem to make our minds up.
Lately I've seen that people are set on doing the things that "the people" want. Now I have several little things that bother me with current political views.

1) for starters the notion that politicians need to follow the will of the people.
Yes, democracy demands that politicians do what the people want them to do.
However,
Are the people realy to be trusted with such a grave task? I mean surely we can't leave the fate of entire nations up to plebians who just simply don't know the next thing about certain disciplines. To put it in short.
Shouldn't politicians be wise men who act based upon the best for everyone despite the wishes of the people?

2) You've been waiting for it and here it comes: THE FRICKING OCCUPY MOVEMENT
Ok so at first I was all aboard for "sticking it up to the man" as most idiots would put it. But all I see now are just spoiled first world brats who just shout all sorts of idiotic nonesense and "fight the capitalist machine" whilst they are having McDonalds for dinner and tweet about their progress on their Ipads.
Not only do I find most of it hypocritical but it is also idiotic. I mean most of their demands are either vague or just plain silly.

Yes, certain things need to be reformed
Yes, things have to be more fair
Yes, our consumer logic has caused the downfall of the global economy(if it is realy noticable. I mean come on we still have ****loads of stuff and we aren't hoarding food stamps).

But to demand at times the total dismantlement of our current economic system by next week? Uhm...*cough*...no. Just...just get back to college and work on yourself.

Then last but not least 3)
How should we handle stuff?

Ok I know this is as vague as a Cataract elderly with Alzheimer's at Woodstock but realy. If tomorrow our world that we grew accustummed to suddenly has a great social, economical and philosiphical/spiritual reform...How should we handle things?

Now my idea is a bit ripped from almost every cyberpunk work of fiction out there. But I favor STRONGLY the idea of creating a sort of Human Hivemind and then let a MASSIVE A.I. handle things on constant, global input. Just communicate and not assymilate so that we can all retain our individuality or "ghost" as one certain Japanese GENIUS put it.

but to be quite honest I think Individuality is a small price to pay if we can then assure a fair, just and honest society for all...

Man I realy HAD to make my comback a wall of text huh? But at least this gives some brainfood hopefully :3

well guys...Let'r rip

[Guthix]

politics never was my strong point,its something created by humans which is majorly misused [unlike art]
my current opinion of politics is a bunch of ppl who just come to make some money,bend the law to theyr side if they have a business and stuff. i mean before i left my country in our political party we had a pop star singer and a guy who used to work a plummer.on the other note the actual example that todays politicians are **** is simply looking at the ppl, petitions,unemployment and britain even started rioting which im surprized hasnt turned into a trend.
what to do eh? well its a very hard question, since politics is not something ppl use in theyr daily lives,i assume it was made that new partys are suposed to be handled by an old party but if the old party is **** then the next one is hightly to folow the same path.
ive stated before that it would be better just go old school like greeks did and throw in a bunch of philosophers and give them a wage big enouth to live decently not like a happy fat prick with 3 cars and a summer house.ofcourse thers always the issue of finding/training such ppl and know theyr morality.its would be like finding friends in the inthernet youd have to go throu all the **** first.

[abyssion1337]

it being 4 AM and me only having skimmed what you said: I think your problems with the Occupy movement come mostly from the fact that the media, as with all things, focuses on the lunatic fringe. As for politics, I hate all of those assholes.

Also this is a philosophy thread, sadly politics (barring some discussions of political views but you didn't frame the conversation in such a way) and social issues (again barring some exceptions but once again you framed it as a current events/social unrest discussion) aren't exactly philosophy.

Both topics (social issues and political views) are certainly valid philosophical topics however you have to pretty much completely divorce them from current events(ja there are other things you can do but that's by far the easiest).

[Kaiju]

I was (and still am) for the Occupy Movement who are their not to "Stick it to the capitalist machine" but to point out the massive economic inequality in our nation. Some corporations are like people in the regard like some are great (such as Apple, RIP Steve Jobs) and bring a lot of innovation to the table while others (like the Oil Industry for one example) are complete corporate scumbags who have Washington in their pocket.

I am currently living in a home mooching of my grandparents, who are struggling for the complete and utter lack of jobs. My Grandmother is the only one working... at a chain restaurant, my Grandfather who is skilled in many things (Contractor, Building Manager, Etc.) cannot get one because he was screwed over by Vietnam, denying him college, screwing him for LIFE in a world if you don't go to college you might as well be homeless. My Mother is currently dealing with absurd levels of depression and lives with her boyfriend, and I can't get a job up in this tiny town because there is none and to make matters worse for me, as I'm out of high school without any job which because there is no jobs! The closest town with a McDonalds or a Walmart is Thirty Miles away across rugged terrain. and We cannot afford the gas for a small minimum wage job that far away.
Because of this (and more) I am scared ****less of College because A. I can't Afford Tuition and B. If i get a loan, GUESS WHOSE IN DEBT FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE? If I don't go to college, I'm screwed as I will never get a job, and if I go I'm screwed because i'm in debt for the rest of my life (and my choice of career/my dream won't immediately be fruitful either), so either way I'm ****ED.

So I agree with the Occupy Movement in some regards (such as the UC Davis Protestors, they are protesting for a cause that is relevant to my problems) but I agree and have to facepalm at the other causes. Capitalism is good with regulation and corporations need to be kept out of Politics. Sad thing that most politicians are former CEO's of these big corporations, and most CEO's are former Politicians...

My belief is Washington shouldn't care about it's wallet, what happened to wanting to be President to be a leader of a nation? Not a face of the Political Party you are from...

Speaking of Political Parties, My Grandfather may be right in suggesting there should be no Political parties in Washington at least, not two big ones that control the house. It's always Democrat or Republican in these things, and no middle ground. It's just two parties telling the other "THEY SUCK" and trying their damnedest to undermine and demonize the other even when said side offers up a plan that could very well benefit our nation. My ideal for Political parties (In Congress and the Senate) is a group of equally divided groups representing different ideals, and a group that moderates them, and forms a plan that benefits our nation. The Participants must be Intelligent individuals that actually represent the wills of the people, this current system sucks ass because Independents and such have little to no representation in Congress or the Senate only Republicans and Democrats, and they are hell bent on demonizing each other than actual ****ing progress. The Republicans slam Democrats for being Democrats, and the Democrats vice versa. It doesn't get anything done and the problem of our economy and such is just getting WORSE. That the GOP candidates for the 2012 are all...****ing stupid, their "debates" make me be ashamed of living in America, hell, make me ashamed of being a Human Being, and their stances on some issues are steps away from progress, and make most americans look even more stupid on the World Stage.
http://gawker.com/5863891/heres-herman-cains-hilariously-stupid-facebook-foreign-policy-map
http://gawker.com/5860530/bachmann-it-would-be-absurd-to-get-waterboarded-to-prove-its-not-torture?tag=2012&autoplay
http://gawker.com/5859669/rick-perrys-good-government-plan-throw-the-bums-in-jail?tag=2012
http://gawker.com/5861499/herman-cain-thank-god-my-arab-doctor-wasnt-muslim?tag=2012
http://gawker.com/5853392/jon-stewart-republican-candidates-are-too-extreme-even-for-other-republicans?tag=2012&autoplay
Among COUNTLESS others...Dear, ****ing, god. Lobotomize these people, please.


I'm no Politics-Buff so that idea may suck to some of you, but I'm still rather undereducated (College, Y U SO ****ING EXPENSIVE?) buts that's my take on it.


Speaking of which, The Protect IP/SOPA is also a good indication that Washington is out of control. If those bills pass, the Occupy protests are just going to get worse...MUCH WORSE.

[Guthix]

i feel bad after watching those

[jinzo64]

i saw the names of the links and decided not to watch.
but on pollitics.
goverment should yeiled to the voice of the people even though the people's veiw is a bit vague.
the people normaly ask
for things like better
trains
hospitals
police
fire services

[Shuiia]

Oh yeah those bills...fyi they didn't make it past the first hearing if I can remember correctly.

But to be honest a political system and overall social environment that is based on WANTING things...
I can't see the benefit in that.

Allow me to extrapolate:
So if you take politics and other stuff and strip it down to its bare fundaments. Then what is everything based on?

On what people WANT. Now ok wanting things because you realy NEED them yes that is always good.
But just wanting something because you want it...myeah no.

Too be honest I just think we are going a bit too far with everything opinion based, like politics and economics for instance, it is all based on what the average plebian wants, therefore based on selfishness and therefore greed.

Not to say EVERYONE IS GREEDY ZOMG but that just we shouldn't base things on how it can benefit oneself or close ones but rather on how it can evolve humans as a whole.

Remember we always shout about how we should be more unified. So my question is why the **** aren't we working towards that?
fair and just resources for everyone on the planet and try to establish a unified and ever evolving human race.

If this is all a bit hard to grasp look at Star Trek:
24th century
no currency
no poverty
constant discovery and evolving of the human race
and moreso
A GENUINELY UNIFIED HUMAN RACE
not a single war for hundreds of years and everyone is just an individual but realises they are a part of something much greater than themselves.

[Guthix]

lol its not that simple, ppl cant just "unify" on top of that your example is fiction, on another note i recall rusians tried that, yet somehow it ended up killing theyr own ppl.
heres a simple example, why do I [a hard working citizen who contributes alot to the comunity] must get the same amount of money as a homeless man [reasons weather bad luck, betrayal or simply lazyness does not matter],ofcourse thers always an option to help the man find a job [karmatic thinking].thers bull****ingly alot of reasons why ppl cant unify-age,language,location,apearance,mental spiritual and psychical conditions.
i guess you can add religion bull**** too.
yet i think the greatest reason why the word is unfied is the goal.for the world to be unified everyone must have the same goal and tragic side of that that some dont even know why they live for, they ask theyr entire lives why was i born?what am i suposed to do?ofcouse some might say go the tradictional way- go to school -work -find female -have child- make child go to school- wait for your death,but what if the person cant be educated cause hes in africa or with a down syndrome? what if you cant work because the things you learned about have no job spaces left?what if your seed backfires?what if your child goes agaisnt you and goes all emo?what if you dont want to die?
these are reason why everyones goals spread like tree roots, some short some deep within the bowls of the earth,sure you could dig it up tie the roots and shove it back in, but the tree will die.

[abyssion1337]

lol its not that simple, ppl cant just "unify" on top of that your example is fiction, on another note i recall rusians tried that, yet somehow it ended up killing theyr own ppl.
heres a simple example, why do I [a hard working citizen who contributes alot to the comunity] must get the same amount of money as a homeless man [reasons weather bad luck, betrayal or simply lazyness does not matter],ofcourse thers always an option to help the man find a job [karmatic thinking].thers bull****ingly alot of reasons why ppl cant unify-age,language,location,apearance,mental spiritual and psychical conditions.
i guess you can add religion bull**** too.
yet i think the greatest reason why the word is unfied is the goal.for the world to be unified everyone must have the same goal and tragic side of that that some dont even know why they live for, they ask theyr entire lives why was i born?what am i suposed to do?ofcouse some might say go the tradictional way- go to school -work -find female -have child- make child go to school- wait for your death,but what if the person cant be educated cause hes in africa or with a down syndrome? what if you cant work because the things you learned about have no job spaces left?what if your seed backfires?what if your child goes agaisnt you and goes all emo?what if you dont want to die?
these are reason why everyones goals spread like tree roots, some short some deep within the bowls of the earth,sure you could dig it up tie the roots and shove it back in, but the tree will die.
I'm so glad that was organized in a logical coherent way with proper grammar, spelling and sentence structure. Otherwise it would sound like the vagaries of a complete idiot talking about a subject he barely understands. On top of that it would be difficult and annoying to read so kudos.

[Guthix]

why do i have a sence of sarcasm ^^ im to lazy for gramma and just fixed some typos

[jinzo64]

it's hard to tell.
when someones being sarcastic online.
but i think he was being sincire.

[Guthix]

that is odd, i got the opinion that abyson is like back only more lawfull,doh well, welcome to the internetz

[jinzo64]

the internetz in awsome.

[Shuiia]

ok reviving this thread again after what?
HOLY CRAP more than a year?!
...we got a lot of catching up to do

So my question to you guys and a little disscusion I'd like to get brewing since I've seen a lot about it lately

Religion

now I hear you thinking oh damn he opened the floodgates now. Well I think we need a lot of things of our collective chests and start having civil disscusions about this topic. Part due to the fact I'm interested to see various aspects of the human conciousness about this subject matter.

Now please keep the disscusion civil and constructed don't go all weh weh God is a fabrication of man or weh weh you are just godless. Just transmit your own views and discuss the matter and think of what others might think and believe and try to create a full spectrum of views for yourself.

Without further nitpicking:
Let the chaos commence

[Kaiju]

Before I hear ANY arguments why Religion is evil because it starts wars and other such bull****, read this, ALL OF IT:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtisticLicenseReligion
and here for misconceptions of Christianity:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtisticLicenseTraditionalChristianity

Now, I'm Agnostic. So it may seem odd that I am DEFENDING religion. But most arguments against religion I see made by other agnostics and athiests is all the same fallacious bull****. Such as Christianity caused the Dark Ages, Religion causes nothing but war, and things as absurd as Religion causes DIFFERENCES and DIFFERENCES are bad.
Now, there are a vocal Minority which paints Religion in a bad light, namely bigots like the Westboro Baptist Church and those who lined up at Chik Fil'A in droves because they said Gay Marraige was against their values who cited the bible as their hatred of gay marriage. Those people are MORONS. They do not represent the faith as a whole, much like most people hate anime because of the weaboo's and shippers. Who are at best, a vocal minority of the fandom.

My stance on Religion and Science is thus: If it can be explained logically with evidence so be it. But there are some things in this world that I feel cannot or have not been explained away by science. Too many things labeled as coincidence and hoax (such as ghosts, reincarnation, and such.)And Personally I cannot accept death as athiests paint it out to be. I just can't. It SCARES me. I'd rather burn in hell or otherwise than having a permanent end of consciousness with no dreams, no thought, no anything. So yeah, I'll believe in an afterlife. As for what afterlife exists I'll meet it as I go.

As for a God. I believe if a being was truly omniscient, truly omnipotent, and truly omnibenevolent. It would be so incomprehensible it would be borderline lovecraftian in terms of thought. If it created something so grand as the universe, I doubt it would care for pointless things such as whether or not gay people got married or not, if it did, it would not be omnibenevolent nor omniscient. As it truly loved everyone it wouldn't care for sexual orientation and if it truly knew everything, it would know that orientation is pointless in the long run.

I do not wish to cause a debate about MY beliefs, I certainly won't force them on any one of you. I am just laying out my stance on the subject as well as my hate against BOTH sides of the debate. Being Neutral is a painful thing. I now understand how MADEVIL ticks, lol.

[Guthix]

being neutral is actualy quite easy lol.
my point of view on religion:
well like any other human motivation the fear of death causes humans to do the greatest and the stupidest things. so if a person is left is despair he will creates illiusions of salvasion.now illiusions dont realy have visible affects so why the illiusion of a so called "god" is within a society which is suposed to thing rationaly? hope. hope makes a differance since sometimes you meet your doom simply by giving up. thus a few people were so into religion and having abit more hope then the other lot groveling in misery under the tirony of the wealthy, made a breaktrough.this made a spread of religion to anyone who was in despair, since the numbers were high back in the day there were many folowers.even before the romans, usualy in tribes there ues to be shamans so simply surpassed others by having more hope to succeed via spirits or whatnot.so a hardly visible mental condition gives some motivation to human kind- whats wrong then? the fact that its hardly visible [technicaly it doesnt egzist at all]. metaphoricaly religion can be like the wind you can hear and feel it but you will never see its true nature or size. Thus humans shaped religion in theyr own eyes, each one creating his own rules, some saw these changes and tried to imprint the basic rules into a fat ****y book, but that didnt help.since religion didnt have complete ground rules differeances became conflicts, the hatred on those conflicts passed on to those who dont hold the religion or have different views, on top of that extreemists pushed people away from religion.thus it made history a cluster**** of war and hatred out of trying to give humanity more hope.another flaw or religion is if a person has enouth hope and motivation in life he doesnt need religion, but others still shove, hindering the person even with rituals and whatnot wasting his time and energy.

as for the after life, i kinda agree with kaju eternity doesnt seem that appealing, sure they say hell is full of suffering, what i find odd is that no one says what awaits in heaven?how is simply saying you will go to heaven would motivate someone, not to mention to be an eternity in there,i get bored of living my life already and they offer ethernity.derailing from chistianity- budism, of my ****ing god... reincarnation? seriously? its like groundhog day only you dont remember anything [or just dreams your afterlife like some claim] i mean what if you reincarnate into a litle girl kidnaped and raped for 10 years by a psycho untill you die from giving too many births at young age.In my opinion life is something THAT IS NOT TO BE REPEATED, nor extended after death. you can extend life while living but atleast give it the process of freaking mentaly adjusting.

God, prolly stated a 1000 times-allmighty, allknowing, all seeing and left litle timmy cripled and in pain for the rest of his life.i remember someone said unlike modern gods, the gods in greece mithology were visible assholes [not all], but atleast you could see what your dealing with. not to expect a always happy old man who aids you sudently backstab you with a lightning bolt in your face cause hes passing judgment for stepping on an ant or w/e.also jesus, how does dying lift sins? he died for our sins? how did that remove our sins? we didnt forget them. we make new ones and a dead person cant realy make it better.

anyway in conclusion i think religion is for weak willed poeple who cant seem to deal with theyr despair and you cant live your whole life with motivation created from despair.i doubt that there would be so many religious people living so bad that they would need a god. its more an act of greed then salvation now.

[Neomalysys]

I iindentify as a christian spirtualist. I believe that we are all spiritual beings that exist for a time as phsyical beings and that when we die we continue our existance as an undying spirit. I do believe in heaven and hell but also that there are mulitple ways to christ that don't require directly following his teachings. I believe good people that truly seek frogiveness for their sins or that understandwhat they have done is wrong and seek to make up for it. I believe that only those who are truly unrepentent go to hell and that we all pay for sins once if we acknowledge what we did is wrong but agian in the next life if we aren't much like karma. I also believe that we should strive to find balance in our lives somthing I personally use the word zen to refer to. I also acknowledge the power of symblos and that thier true power comes from the person wearing or using the symbol. That's why as a christian I don't see anything wrong with upside down crosses, pentacles, triquerta's and other sybmbols.

[Kaiju]

Th funny thing about the upside cross: It's a common symbol used by the pope in tribute to St Peter, who died by being crucified upside down because he did not believe himself worthy to die the same way as Jesus.
It's not satanic at all. So all the Satanists who use it are, in fact, paying tribute to St. Peter.

[Guthix]

I iindentify as a christian spirtualist. I believe that we are all spiritual beings that exist for a time as phsyical beings and that when we die we continue our existance as an undying spirit. I do believe in heaven and hell but also that there are mulitple ways to christ that don't require directly following his teachings. I believe good people that truly seek frogiveness for their sins or that understandwhat they have done is wrong and seek to make up for it. I believe that only those who are truly unrepentent go to hell and that we all pay for sins once if we acknowledge what we did is wrong but agian in the next life if we aren't much like karma. I also believe that we should strive to find balance in our lives somthing I personally use the word zen to refer to. I also acknowledge the power of symblos and that thier true power comes from the person wearing or using the symbol. That's why as a christian I don't see anything wrong with upside down crosses, pentacles, triquerta's and other sybmbols.

all of my hate

[thedarkmessenger]

all of my hate
feeling's mutual

[Neomalysys]

I never said I support organized religion. I used to but now I really don't. You don't have to go to church to be religious. I also think atheist that outright attack religion are just trolls. I have no problam with atheist and agnostics. It's a presons choice if they choose to follow a religion, believe in a higher power, or choose not to believe in a higher power. Hell some religions don't even have a god in the traditional sense.

[Shuiia]

Now this is gonna be hard for me because I don't particularly enjoy labels so to speak
First off I'd like to say you could call me a Christian protestant. I could also be labeled as a Transhumanist. Now to dive further into the complete spectrum of my beliefs and whatnot.

Yes I do believe in a God and his/her Son yah die yah die yah. Now I might add Protestants have not the same view of christianity as catholics have. We do not worship saints and we aren't as strict in Bible teachings. What we believe in is the forgiveness and grace of God and the free will of man. What we more or less believe is that we are put here by God and that we may choose to live our lives as we see fit and that in the end no matter how you may think or feel about things God is the last, final and ultimate judge.

With that comes my transhumanist views more or less. Now I believe, think and feel that the Human race is far from being actually noteworthy and good. We still argue too much amongst ourselves, more and more people are becoming quite arrogant and full of themselves and too be honest technology is far from what it should be at this stage.
My opinion is thus that technology should be focused on and advanced some more and eventually that we should meld with the technology that we created (mind uploading etc.). This view comes more or less from my love for cyberpunk but I also see it as a feasable and needed future. My opinion is that with true knowledge we can end basically any problem the world may have. Because what I see now for reasoning are semi-half arsed arguements brought forth by limited knowledge and a lack of wisdom.

Continueing on to my religious view etc.
I try to be as complete as I can but honestly this is a near impossible task as I think that the words we use is a realy limited way of communicating.
I believe in everything and nothing. Now allow me to expand on that. I believe in virtually 95% what spirituallity teaches us and I see a little subtle truth in everything we have discovered and have been taught throughout the ages. Then again I see we have no feasable or viable proof of anything be them spiritual or otherwise.
This is also reflected to my personal being. I believe myself part of nothing that can be labeled or be grouped together, yet I see myself part of virtually anything. Thus I try to implement as much knowledge and wisdom to my person.

I am for unification of the human race and true and equal understanding, knowledge and wisdom. Just as you can get from virtually any religion out there.

Now I see that I've barely scratched the surface to how I feel about problems most people seem to have nowadays with Christians (Bible, God complex, personal freedom etc.)
Now let me be the first to say not every Christian follows the Bible as their personal manual and believes and holds for truth EVERY single word in it.
How the Bible and therefor any religious text is interpreted is an individual thing. I do not believe in religion by text.
How I and most Christians view the Bible is as follows:

A book with stories meant to help one with the quest to knowledge, wisdom, understanding and equality.

This is as open to interpretation as a Book that stops halfway through the plot. It is meant as to be more of a red thread through the thread bundle of life. It is more of a little tourguide to a great metropolis, you don't HAVE to follow it step by step but it can give you some nice little pointers from time to time. In the end how you venture through the metropolis is up to you and you alone.

In the end what I believe is Everything and nothing is true. And by God's grace we should strive to become as advanced as we can possibly be

Now I know this is cluttered as can be and extremely limited but I blame my being human for that. Now if you'll excuse me I need to hang myself for the arrogance on display here.

[Guthix]

you can bang your head for saying first.
im too lazy to type so ill just focus on the last bit. that is a large problem thay the bible is open to interpretation.why? because religion is taken seriously, and its taken seriously by many people, its taken seriously in different ways thus dividing the people and creating conflict.if the bible was not a porn book of fairy tales there would be more stability, i mean its like otakus, there is alot of them, they have a similar interest but they never go for anything grand as making a wall of anime girls in bikinis for masses to worship or stupid as war for which character is the most gar, because these fairy tales arent taken seriously.[ some do but it doesnt go past stupid rants usualy].i mean there are many other literatuce pieces, better written even which can be used to interpret the morals of life, and now 3rd of humanity is stuck with a single book [ or people who are led by those who read that boook] which was writen by retards who thought the earth was flat [rewriten cuz the stupidity was so obvious], i mean you say people should advance, well news flash people are repeating the history cuz theyr folowing ****ass rules from a **** ass book writen by **** ass people who had no idea how advanced we are now.
yes i did sorta loose my temper, seems im not as compasionate to ignorance as i thought.

[Shuiia]

Well you can't blame people for looking too deep into things but to say the source material is to blame?
I'd hardly say that.
This is exactly what I said I vowed for: complete and honest understanding of virtually anything. I mean if you look closely at things you'd see that many of our opinions on matters are horribly incomplete and inacurate.

I mean wars waged because of religion?
Yes, a bunch of people wage wars because of religion but let's not forget what people were mostly waging wars for under the guise of religion:
resources
limitations of personal freedoms
imperialism
lebensraum
glory

to name a few things
In my opinion people that discriminate, kill and cheat because they say certain aspects of their religion tells them to are quite frankly misinterpreting what they believe. I mean many religious texts go WAAAAYYYYY against this sort of behaviour and instead vow for wisdom, knowledge and unification through understanding.

Yes religion is open to interpretation, yes people get divided by their interpretations of it. But still the same can be said for everything. I mean look at civil wars, a whole bunch of them have nothing to do with religion and yet thousands of lives are lost in meaningless battle.

So in conclusion I'd say conflict and all sorts of troubles are not to blame on religion and religion based stuff.
I blame the human conciousness for it. Texts are only that much ink on paper it is individual understanding and misinterpretation of what that ink on paper says that causes these problems.

[Guthix]

a blame game? i never said the knife[bible] is the culprit of murder, but it gives man another weapon [****y excuse] to spill blood.
my point was that stuff is outdated and the flaws which it posses will increase over time because people change the ink in the pages doesnt.

[Neomalysys]

Why the **** can't we just agree to get along despite differences of opinion.

[Guthix]

cuz its a philosophy thread, theres no boundarys here

[Neomalysys]

True at least there hasn't been any of the diehard creationist vs evolution stuff going on. I actually see both as being possible. Just because evolution exist doesn't mean God doesn't. God could have created evolution, I mean come on evolution is pretty smart stuff and a great way for a being creating lifeforms to ensure they can exist without direct intervention from their creator. Also it allows chaos and law to coexist. I also like that no one has started spewing anti-gay messages using ancient defunct Jewish laws as evidence why homosexuality is bad.

[Kaiju]

True at least there hasn't been any of the diehard creationist vs evolution stuff going on. I actually see both as being possible. Just because evolution exist doesn't mean God doesn't. God could have created evolution, I mean come on evolution is pretty smart stuff and a great way for a being creating lifeforms to ensure they can exist without direct intervention from their creator. Also it allows chaos and law to coexist. I also like that no one has started spewing anti-gay messages using ancient defunct Jewish laws as evidence why homosexuality is bad.

^Well Said! I agree. The Catholic Church even agrees! The Church itself is very open to science, and has offered a compromise that as long as scientists don't try to find out the secrets of creation, they will be open to anything else. Evolution could well be driven by a divine entity, and some aspects of Evolution SEEM to be intelligent design in of itself. Most Creationist vs. Evolution debates occur here in 'murica were about 50% of the populace believe Evolution is a sham, the majority of the rest of the world accepts it as a truth. Which I find both hilarious and (as someone living in 'murica) something to be ashamed of.
As for homosexuality, Every one on this forum is a yuri fiend (Yaoi if your female) in some way. Anti-Homosexual ranting is not something you'll find here :P

[Neomalysys]

It's the internet a troll will create an account to bitch about anything. But yeah creationism and the rapture are basically American constructs that aren't really known about by christians in other countries. Go figure that the rest of the world is right that many American's are stupid. Also in some countries people get along fine no matter what race and religion or lack thereof is. But their are also stupid ahole bigots everywhere. And to me the sad part is most of the bigots are christians some are muslims, jews, or other religions btu most are christians it seems.

[Guthix]

True at least there hasn't been any of the diehard creationist vs evolution stuff going on. I actually see both as being possible. Just because evolution exist doesn't mean God doesn't. God could have created evolution, I mean come on evolution is pretty smart stuff and a great way for a being creating lifeforms to ensure they can exist without direct intervention from their creator. Also it allows chaos and law to coexist. I also like that no one has started spewing anti-gay messages using ancient defunct Jewish laws as evidence why homosexuality is bad.

an image of adom and eve being monkeys flew into my mind

[Shuiia]

In all honesty as I've said before I hold everything open as a possibility
I believe God exists and watches over us
Then again it could all be false
Then again the things we come up with to take it's place and alternatives

They can also be either true or false.

I mean keep in mind that the origin of life, the laws of physics and even the structure of the Atom are all based on theories.
Realy plausible feasable theories.
They have not been proven. There is no die hard black on white proof of anything we have come up with these past thousands to millions of years.
even at school where I study medical imaging where we use a lot of stuff concerning radiobiology, ultrasound principles and nuclear physics we keep getting told:
"Everything you learn here has not been proven. We only use it because it works."

By the way Guttsie I'm gonna come back at your previous statement a little later. I have a bit of stuff to do at the moment and I need to form a decent rebuttal before emotions and unrational thinking """""may"""" get the better of me

[Shuiia]

I also like that no one has started spewing anti-gay messages using ancient defunct Jewish laws as evidence why homosexuality is bad.

Oh believe me I have my own reasons for that but that is something maybe for a later topic.
Let's focus on religion for the time being.